SAM SANDERS, HOST:
You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Sam Sanders. This week - the Andre Leon Talley. There aren't enough words in the English language to fully describe him, but we can try.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
ANDRE LEON TALLEY: I don't live for fashion. I live for beauty and style. Fashion is fleeting. Style remains.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: This is Andre Leon Talley in the 2017 documentary "The Gospel According To Andre."
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
TALLEY: I think that beauty comes in many forms. It could be a flower. It could be a gesture. It could be so many things, so many things.
SANDERS: Andre was a fashion editor, most notably at Vogue magazine. And he was also larger than life, a phrase I have seen used in almost every story and every interview I've read about him. But, really, Andre was larger than life. He was a 6-foot-6 queer, loud Black man who towered - literally and figuratively - over the fashion world, usually while wearing a very dramatic cape.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
TALLEY: But this is not a shirt to sleep in, OK? This is a shirt to go to Karl Lagerfeld's house in Ramatuelle in Saint-Tropez to have lunch on a terrace. Then you change at night into another color, perhaps in silk. This is not a night shirt. Do not get this mixed up with a grandpapa night shirt - not at these prices.
SANDERS: Andre's story is kind of a fairy tale. He grew up in the Jim Crow South. He discovered Vogue magazine in segregated Durham, N.C., at the public library when he was just a kid, and that changed his life.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
TALLEY: Then I was ripping pages out of Vogue, putting the pictures up on my wall in my room with thumbtacks. And I just had a room wallpapered from head to ceiling, floor to ceiling, with images from Vogue.
SANDERS: Flash-forward a bit - Andre goes on to become one of the most defining and recognizable voices in fashion for decades. He also had a master's degree in French literature. I know. Andre was poetic. He was lyrical. He was dramatic. He had impeccable taste, better than mine - and yours, too. But above all, he was nice and generous with his gifts.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
TALLEY: I never showed my insecurity. I just rose to the occasion. I stood up straight and tall, like a tall, tall sunflower, and I just radiated the light and the beauty of my mind in relationship to the world of fashion.
SANDERS: There was simply no one else like him.
(SOUNDBITE OF FILM, "THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ANDRE")
TALLEY: And Mr. Lagerfeld does not like to see you at his house on a vacation all day in the same outfit. You have to change at least twice, if not three times a day. It's part of the rule, and it's right.
SANDERS: Andre Leon Talley died earlier this week at the age of 73, after a past few years of finally revealing all the bad stuff he went through as a Black queer man in the very white world of fashion.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: Andre had said the two most important people in his life were his grandmother and his mentor, fashion editor Diana Vreeland. He said those two women were very much alike because both of them, among other things, gave people joy. In "The Gospel According To Andre," he quoted back something Diana Vreeland once said - you want to give the world some sort of spark that is perhaps not there. For a lot of us, Andre was that spark.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: But also, for a lot of us, myself included, we didn't recognize that spark until way later. Even though Andre Leon Talley had been around for decades, most of my friends and people my age, we didn't really appreciate who he was until he was cast as a judge on "America's Next Top Model."
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL")
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: Do you want to be on top?
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Singing) On top...
ZACH STAFFORD: "America's Next Top Model" is when he became part of the zeitgeist, I think, for all of us, especially millennials.
SANDERS: This is Zach Stafford. He's a journalist and columnist at MSNBC.
SAEED JONES: He brought such a different energy, and I just remember in particular him saying, you know, that's just too much fashion.
SANDERS: And this is poet Saeed Jones.
JONES: (Laughter) You know, he was totally bringing a different spirit to a, frankly, kind of mean-spirited show. And then I just - I had to learn about this person.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: I keep thinking about this one moment of Andre on "America's Next Top Model" that kind of just proves his spirit. So, like, a lot of those judges were kind of mean to the girls and the boys on the show. But there was one Black model...
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL")
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: Alasia.
SANDERS: ...Who was a little rough around the edges. And she had a shoot and was showing the photos to the judges, and all of the judges clowned her.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL")
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: Let's take a look at your best shot with your best.
(SOUNDBITE OF CAMERA SHUTTER SOUND EFFECT)
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #5: Never seen a photo like that before.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #6: Nor have I. There's a reason.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #5: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: (Laughter).
UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #6: OK, so which fashion magazines have you been studying?
SANDERS: Except for Andre. And he was like, no, I get it. I like it. I see her potential.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL")
TALLEY: I applaud you for the boldness of having the imagination to take the jacket and put it on backwards and put your arm where it was and take that pose. I think it's a very raw, beautiful photograph.
SANDERS: She goes on to, like, place in the top six. She has a career modeling after that. And she was saved because Andre took the time to actually see her. And that was also present throughout his entire career. He was nice to the girls. He was nice to the boys. Like, he really made it a point to be kind in a way that other folks just weren't doing.
JONES: Yeah. I think that's why, as Zach said, Andre Leon Talley, ALT, became such an important part of the zeitgeist - because he enters the public conversation in the 2000s, at a point where I think we see the high fashion industry, Anna Wintour, that world, trying to bridge the gap with pop culture. And the thing is, Black people are culture.
SANDERS: Yeah, yeah.
JONES: And Andre, in addition to, as I said in, like, you know, my essay about him, you know, he was comfortable in Milan, and he could do Paris, and he could talk to you about all of these different fashion eras, and he would throw out French terms that I still can't say.
SANDERS: (Laughter).
JONES: But he was raised by his grandmother, a churchgoing woman in Durham, N.C.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: He had vivid memories of, you know, the segregated South and Black women in church hats. And so I think when he then appears on a show like "America's Next Top Model," it's funny to see someone like Tyra Banks or Nigel Barker kind of parroting this arrogant, snobby, empty judgment...
SANDERS: Yes. Yes.
JONES: ...And then here comes Andre, and he's like, uh-uh-uh (ph), we are not just going to dismiss this. And he very eloquently - you know, he's not just, like, defending her just to defend this Black model. He actually has a really substantive...
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: ...Long-lasting perspective on that moment.
STAFFORD: Yeah. And he - I mean, and the clip is incredible. If you haven't seen it, it's - I think it's trending on Twitter still. But what he also says at the end is - Tyra Banks, who is one of the most famous Black supermodels ever, when she challenges him, saying, like, wait, you really like this? He not only says, yes; he says, yes, I would also buy this photo in a gallery, and I would hang it in my salon. And he goes into this incredible monologue...
SANDERS: And then he explains what a salon is.
STAFFORD: Yes. He's like, it's a place...
SANDERS: A salon is a place where you do this.
STAFFORD: Yes.
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "AMERICA'S NEXT TOP MODEL")
TALLEY: Not in my living room - my salon. A salon is a room where you go and you converse. And you serve beautiful drinks, and you talk about politics, religion, art, love, sex, beauty, wine, roses and that fabulous girl and her fabulous derriere - butt. And I think it's a wonderful photograph.
ALASIA BALLARD: Thank you.
STAFFORD: And what he's saying in that moment is, you know, not only do I have taste, but I think this is worth us coming together in community and talking about its importance...
JONES: Yes.
STAFFORD: ...And bringing this person in. And that's why Andre was so incredible because throughout his whole career, he was about reaching out and bringing you in, whether you were Black, white, Asian, whatever. It was about you being part of his family. And that's why he had such a familiar relationship with Yves Saint Laurent, Karl Lagerfeld, so on and so forth - and also, why he and Anna Wintour have such a complicated family, I guess, history with each other.
SANDERS: Listen; I want to get to Anna Wintour, but first, I want to talk a little bit about his amazing journey. So we kind of mentioned a bit of it, but his story is almost a fairy tale. His parents have him in Washington, D.C. As soon as he's born, they drop him off at his grandmother's in Durham, N.C., and say, you raise him. His grandmother is a maid at the men's dorms at Duke University. But as a kid, around 9 or 10, at the Durham public library, he discovers Vogue magazine, and it changes his life. He ends up going to Brown, getting a master's degree in French literature. And then, through his intellect and ability to make these really big connections very easily, he goes from Interview magazine to Women's Wear Daily to Vogue. I mean, that trajectory is so remarkable. But I'm wondering, for the two of you, what part of that life story and the climb stands out to you most?
STAFFORD: For me, I was re-reading a lot of things the last few days since he died, and something that is so shocking - and I'm sure we'll talk about this - is the economic disparity of Andre Leon Talley compared to other white editors in the industry. And from the beginning - and it may have to do with the fact that he comes from a low-income background and was creating luxury and fashion with little resources ever since he was a child, so he was used to this - but he was not getting paid anything, yet he kept pushing through. And I think all of us have been in situations where we have not been paid...
SANDERS: Come on.
STAFFORD: ...Similarly to other people...
SANDERS: Come on.
STAFFORD: ...And we kept pushing through. And that's where I think Black boys like us see a lot of ourselves in him, is that he said, my dream is bigger than that dollar, than that house. It's worth fighting for.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: You know, something that's heavy on my mind this morning is that - and I'm not exactly sure where they line up in age, but they're pretty close. You know, Representative John Lewis just passed away, right?
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: Like, just a couple of years ago.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: Around the same - they are of the same era.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: Around the same time that Representative John Lewis has told the story as a kid of going into the public library where he lived in the South and trying to get a public card and being denied his library card because he was Black, that is within a decade of someone like Andre Leon Talley walking into his public library in North Carolina and picking up his first issue of Vogue. And the reason they are both on my mind so much is, like, look at the arc of their lives. And to me, you know, the only institution in our country perhaps whiter than politics is fashion.
SANDERS: Oof (ph).
JONES: And so it's so interesting to think about what it means for someone like Andre Leon Talley, who literally - who loved the institution of fashion, who loved its possibilities, its fantasies, what that joy provided us - he loved it more than fashion ever loved him. And here we are, you know, watching senators refuse to honor Representative John Lewis' legacy when it comes to voting rights - you know, another white institution that refuses to substantively honor the contributions of a Black person who survived the Jim Crow South and contributed everything they could to our country. And so, yeah, I think it's heartbreaking. It's really difficult to have these icons, these heroes who were so good to us. And I say us as Black people (laughter).
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah.
JONES: They were good to everybody, but they were really good to us.
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
JONES: You know, and to see that they didn't perhaps always - in their lifetimes, you know, always receive that in turn.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. So he did a lot in his career. But Andre Leon Talley was perhaps most well known for being the creative director at Vogue for a very long time. What does it mean to be a creative director at a place like Vogue magazine?
JONES: I mean, I have a great example that someone shared just yesterday. If you - one of my favorite designers is Rick Owens. You know, we love his gothy, a lot of leather, a lot of black, you know, asymmetrical, genderqueer fashion. He shared that when he was a young designer - I believe he was based in LA for the time. This is 2000. He said he just got a call on his landline out of the blue. And he picked up the phone. And it was a loud person.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: And it was Andre Leon Talley. And Andre...
SANDERS: Wow.
JONES: ...Said, I saw your stuff, like, on the window, like, passing it on the street. You've got to meet Anna Wintour.
SANDERS: Wow.
JONES: And - you know, and now Rick Owens is, like, a staple in the industry. I think people who don't even know Rick Owens know his look. You know what I mean? And I think that's an excellent example of the work that Andre was doing at Vogue.
STAFFORD: Yes.
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: And another thing that also comes to mind for me is his 1996 cover he did for Vanity Fair, which is part of the Conde Nast family. And he did this cover with Naomi Campbell...
JONES: Yes.
STAFFORD: ...Where he made her...
JONES: Oh, I'm sorry (laughter).
SANDERS: Yes. I wanted to talk about...
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: ...That.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yes.
STAFFORD: Where he made her Scarlett O'Hara from "Gone With The Wind." And he said, you know what, girl? We're going to make you the white woman in this and all the Black people wealthy and white people the opposite. And that was John Galliano and Manolo Blahnik, who was a dear friend of his for a long time. But that's in 1996. He's, like, flipping one of the most famous films on its head - and books - and saying, no, Black people are reclaiming this - in the pages of, like, white women's homes...
JONES: (Laughter).
STAFFORD: ...Where they're like, what the hell? Scarlett O'Hara's not Black (laughter). She's not Naomi Campbell.
JONES: Incredible.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
SANDERS: Coming up, more on Andre Leon Talley and his tumultuous relationship with Anna Wintour.
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
SANDERS: So I want to talk about the relationship between Anna Wintour and Andre Leon Talley and all of the gender and racial complications it contains. Wintour...
JONES: Phew.
STAFFORD: OK.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: I mean, yes.
STAFFORD: Let's do it.
SANDERS: Yes. Let's...
JONES: You sure?
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Let me get my Vaseline real quick.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: So Wintour admitted...
JONES: Take off the earrings.
SANDERS: (Laughter) So Wintour admitted that Andre knew more about fashion and fashion history than (inaudible) did. And Talley, towards the end of his career and life, called their relationship parasitic - Anna being the parasite. First question on this for you both - how would you two describe the relationship between these two people?
STAFFORD: (Laughter) I'm trying to choose my words very carefully...
SANDERS: Let it out.
STAFFORD: ...Here...
SANDERS: Let it out.
STAFFORD: ...As someone a bit too close to some of this. I mean, I do think - I mean, Andre says parasitic. And I think that's right. And I think that can exist and Anna Wintour not be the devil incarnate, even though the movie is called "The Devil Wears Prada."
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: I think there is a way in which Black people, through every institution and every expression of creativity, have been used and abused and left to the side. So it's really nothing that different. Andre Leon Talley is just probably the most famous example of white women or white people, specifically white women a lot - I mean, Sam, you said this to me - us the other day. "Cheer" and Monica...
SANDERS: Yes.
STAFFORD: ...And her Black queer folks. We can get into that if you want.
SANDERS: Yes.
STAFFORD: But there is a relationship and an American history of white people using Black people's labor to build empires. That's just fact. So Andre Leon Talley is the best example of how the fashion industry has built its future self off his back. And now we're seeing kind of the fruits of his labor - or the seeds he planted, where we are...
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: ...Seeing, you know, lots of Black people in editorial roles, leading fashion houses. But that's because Andre Leon Talley told them to do that, and they finally just now listened.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: Woo (ph). There's so much to say, I mean, one, because we keep referencing "The Devil Wears Prada," which obviously is a work of fiction inspired by the fashion industry, inspired by a lot of these people. But it is striking that, like, Stanley Tucci's character clearly is supposed to be Andre Leon Talley.
STAFFORD: Yeah, 100%.
SANDERS: Ooh. Yeah.
JONES: So for those of you listening, you know, many people know that movie but may not know Andre Leon Talley. Like, think about what that means. Think about the fact that they didn't even cast a Black gay actor or a Black gay character. It's played by a straight (laughter) Italian...
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: ...American man. So just, like, process that, that erasure. You know, the problem is gender and misogyny in this country is still so retrograde that we can't even get to these higher-level complexities. But I will say, I think gay men - gay Black men and cisgender women in this country have a very complicated relationship. And it's all because we're living under the foot of white patriarchy. I want to make it very clear. But yeah, I mean, I think when drawing from - let's just say film tropes, since I guess "Devil Wears Prada" is on my mind. I mean, when I think of the trope of the magical Negro, I think that informs, for example, a lot of how Black gay people are treated in media and often in the workplace. We're the girlfriend. We're the sassy dispenser of advice. We're loud. We're a character. We're not an expert. We're not more qualified than our peers, right? We're, like, kind of lucky to be there and tolerated.
SANDERS: And they'll tell us that.
JONES: And I think...
SANDERS: They'll say, you should be grateful to be here.
JONES: They'll say it to our face.
SANDERS: Oh, yeah.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
JONES: Yeah. And I think we see that a lot in their...
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: ...Dynamic and also how their dynamic gets depicted.
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: Yeah. And we also know from our own experiences and history - I'm just going to say a lot of this. I feel like lately in media, we have to, like, root things in historical contexts to be like, hey, this has happened before.
JONES: Right.
STAFFORD: But I think a lot about - and this person is not queer. So no one tweet at me that I'm queering someone that's not queer. But Frederick Douglass versus Susan B. Anthony - that story can tell you a lot about the relationships of power and whiteness and Blackness and gender in America through a straight person's lens, though a Black straight man. But Susan B. Anthony, when she found out Black men were about to get the right to vote before white women, she got hella racist and went on a tour in the South. And that's what Andre Leon Talley kind of hints to us in so many interviews of, like, if I speak too loud, if I name this, how it is, they will destroy me. And at the end, his life was pretty destroyed. He died in destitute. Let us not forget that today.
SANDERS: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I keep thinking about this dynamic between Anna and Andre and the long history we've seen of white people and straight people harnessing queer culture or harnessing Black culture for their own ends but never fully empowering those queer people or those Black people or giving them all that they deserve in the process. And you want to say, oh, it's getting better, but then, as you mentioned, I watched "Cheer" Season 2, the hit Netflix show, and you've got this white-presenting coach, coach Monica, whose team is really built on the backs of these handful of strong, beautiful Black queer men who are immensely talented and creative. And it feels like the same parasitic dynamic that Andre described with Anna is happening in that situation, too. And I get sad when I think that I'm watching this show and this dynamic in 2022. And I'm like, how much has changed?
JONES: Well, I think something that is really frustrating is - and everything is complicated. I keep having to say that. Everything is complicated, but it is. That, you know, a lot of queer people - let's say queer men. You know, we gravitate towards the world of fashion and theater and style because perhaps other spaces and other career paths dominated by men, white men in particular, are made to feel unwelcome to us.
SANDERS: Or even threatening.
JONES: Meanwhile - exactly. They're often literally dangerous, right?
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: And then meanwhile, because of women and the - you know, the glass ceilings that they deal with in other spaces, a space like fashion, you know, becomes a certain kind of domain for them. And so to me, I think it is interesting to see these two groups (laughs) that both have kind of been pushed into a certain kind of box, you know, because of the way, you know, racism and patriarchy work - you know, it's not a kumbaya kind of moment.
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: You know, it's not people suddenly coming together and supporting one another based on their outcast status. Instead, it's unfortunately, you know, just as toxic and competitive often as other spaces.
SANDERS: Yeah. I want to talk about the tail end of Andre's career and life. And you both have kind of referenced this. Towards the end, he just began to spill the tea. You know, after decades of being fashion's biggest booster and brand ambassador and working for Vogue and being in the highest parts of the world of high fashion, he began to talk about how badly he had been treated during his career. There was his memoir and other long interviews where he talked about all of it. He talked about once being called Queen Kong. He talked about being underpaid compared to white peers. He talked about a dinner party where the hostess in jest called him the N-word in front of the entire party, and he just had to roll with it. He spilled all the tea.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
TALLEY: They were saying I was a gay ape Queen Kong. And that went on - and I knew this from very close friends. I never confronted her because these things I internalized and kept them bottled up. And do you know how much I wish my grandmother had been alive to have seen this? My grandmother was dead. People always say, how do you do it? How have you put up with this world for so long?
SANDERS: What did it feel like for you to see that happen when it happened?
JONES: There are so many lessons. I mean, and I saw Roxane Gay point this out. You know, these institutions are never going to love us, no matter how much we love them. That does not mean give up your passion or your dream. You know, I would never tell someone - like, my dream is to be a fashion designer. I'm not going to tell you, oh, just walk away, you know?
SANDERS: (Laughter).
JONES: But I think we learn from people like Andre Leon Talley. And listen; there are so many other peers, unfortunately, who have been through similar experiences in different industries. You need to understand the system. And you need to understand that you're going to have to make some difficult choices. And none of them are easy, but they will have to be made. I think you need to hold on to the love because, at the end of the day, Andre - the two things I know about Andre Leon Talley - actually, three. I know he loved himself. I know he loved beauty. And I know he loved Black people.
STAFFORD: Yes.
JONES: He never let go of that, you know? And I think those are lessons.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. You know, one thing I kept thinking as he died and as he spent the last few years of his career and life talking about the hardships he endured, I said to myself, OK, you being confessional now, towards the end, is that an act of bravery or an act of cowardice or a certain kind of savvy or something else? Because part of me says, Andre, you were the most powerful Black queer man in fashion for decades. You could have maybe spoke out earlier. And I don't know if I should be mad at him about that or just say, you know what? This man had to do what he had to do to survive.
STAFFORD: I'm choosing not to be mad.
SANDERS: OK.
STAFFORD: I have the same dilemma.
SANDERS: OK.
STAFFORD: I've been thinking about this a lot, and I think some of (laughter) - in my own career, probably all of our careers, people could say the same thing to us. But I want to be giving of grace today and know that, at his heart, he did always love Black people. People do gloss over the fact that he was an editor at Ebony magazine a lot...
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: ...Back and forth. He even invested in Black media in real ways and tried to build bridges between Vogue and Ebony in very real ways. And he would have made Ebony the equal to Vogue if the world was listening. So just like Andre was good at reading the room and reading the future of fashion, he also knew what it meant to be a big Black man in America and knew when it was the right time to say something in a bigger way. Andre did love the hierarchy of the world. We cannot ignore that. But I do think in the later parts of his life, he wanted more equality. He wanted more decentralization to happen, more people to have chances because Black people, at the very beginning, like Andre Leon Talley, growing up in North Carolina, have the vision, and they have the passion; they just need the access.
SANDERS: There you go.
STAFFORD: So I think we're becoming more accessible. It's just not Vogue. I'm sorry.
JONES: Right. Yeah, because it's - I mean, if Andre was a kid now, to go back to the beginning of this conversation, I think he would have walked into that public library in Durham and looked at Vogue and picked up his phone and started making a TikTok. And he would have...
STAFFORD: Yeah.
JONES: ...Read the house down. And we would have lived.
SANDERS: (Laughter) Yes.
JONES: What I do want to say, though, is, you know, the ideas, the potential, the commentary is out there. I want to see these young Black queer people also get to become gatekeepers.
STAFFORD: Yeah. Yeah.
SANDERS: That's the thing.
JONES: Because that was also a part of Andre's legacy.
SANDERS: Well, yeah. I want the next Andre to not be Anna Wintour's No. 2. I want the next...
JONES: Hello.
SANDERS: ...Andre to be No. 1.
STAFFORD: Say it.
SANDERS: That's what I want.
STAFFORD: Edward Enninful.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Which, by the way, we should know that the editor of British Vogue is a Black gay man who's openly queer and is incredible. And even Andre has said some incredible things about Edward's work.
SANDERS: And, you know, British Vogue right now is running circles around American Vogue. Let's talk about that.
STAFFORD: I mean - tea.
JONES: Let's go deeper. The fact that there were conversations throughout Conde Nast about a need for change in leadership, both because of all kinds of structural inequities that all go back to - like, Anna's been in charge for a very long time now and thus is responsible for things like unpaid internships, pay discrepancies and the fact that...
SANDERS: Colorism.
JONES: Colorism. I mean, you know, just pick an issue, right? And so I think there is actually something really substantive there because it's not just Andre. There's someone like Edward running British Vogue. I don't know how Anna Wintour sleeps at night with those beautiful covers that Edward is pulling out for British Vogue, honey.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Because it's damning. It's an issue.
SANDERS: It's an issue. It's an issue.
JONES: I hope Andre haunts her. That's what I hope.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: With that cape. Imagine the ghost of Andre Leon Talley...
JONES: All of those capes (ph).
SANDERS: ...With one of them capes just running up in her room at night.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Oh, my goodness.
SANDERS: Anna. Anna. All right, last question for you two on this.
STAFFORD: This is how I know Saeed is Southern. Saeed always likes to evoke a ghost...
JONES: Listen...
STAFFORD: ...On people.
JONES: Look; what don't come out in the...
SANDERS: Southern Gothic. I live for it.
JONES: ...Wash comes out in the rinse.
SANDERS: Woo woo (ph). Now, come on.
STAFFORD: Hot.
SANDERS: Talk about that. That's the name of this episode.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: All right, last question for you both. I listened yesterday to Terry Gross' Fresh Air chat with Andre from 2018. He was promoting his latest documentary, "The Gospel According To Andre Leon Talley" (ph). And in this beautiful interview, he told her something that just hurt my heart. About 25 minutes in, he told her that he lives in a gold-plated gilded hell.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)
TALLEY: And I think about it almost every day because as I get older, it's very, very lonely. I have to live a lonely life. I live in my own gilt - gold-plated hell. As Tennessee Williams says, I know the gold-plated hell I'm going to. And I invented this gold-plated hell, and now I must live in it.
SANDERS: He said his whole life and career, he never got close to people. He'd never really been in love, never had a serious relationship. And he just didn't take care of himself or build a life for himself while he was becoming the biggest Black man in fashion. That hurt me. But I'm also wondering if there is a lesson that Andre is giving us, even in that conversation, right now. And I think hearing him say that, the biggest lesson for me, in seeing his life and his death, is to just take care of yourself in the process. Don't let your career keep you from your life, and do not let the performance of joy for other people keep you from your own joy, you know? And I don't know. I love this man, and I just hope that he found some peace and some love for himself while he was here, and I hope he finds some wherever he is now, you know?
STAFFORD: Yeah. He - I've been thinking about this for the past few years because he has been in the media a lot with his documentaries and all this media. And everything that comes through these interviews is that he is incredibly lonely and has been for a long time. And so I just look at his long life of 73 years and to know he never felt that - he never had someone that wanted to go to bed with him and be in love with him and build a life with him. And he definitely - it weighs on him, and you can see it in these interviews. And I think that is something a lot of ambitious people should take is that, yeah, the career is a big thing and having all these - this money and power is great, but at the end of the day, it's you at home.
JONES: Yeah. Just yesterday, I was texting a friend because the two of us went to see the documentary, "The Gospel According To Andre." And when we left the theater - we're both gay men - we were shaken because of the absence of love in his life. And we both then and again yesterday had a conversation about how it kind of woke something up in us, respectively, that we both separately, in our lives, realized, like, love has its demands, too. You know, I love poetry. I love literature and art. But there was just, like, a moment when I walked out of that theater, like, spending time with Andre's story - I realized - I was like, oh, I need to take love as seriously as I take art, you know? And I think that's a - it's a hard lesson, and it's heartbreaking that it feels like Andre is almost a martyr for us to learn this lesson, but we would do well to learn it. Take love seriously.
STAFFORD: Yeah. And it's also something - you look at his life now, and you have to question, how much did he really love fashion if fashion wasn't loving him? What type of relationship is that? And how do we all have those types of relationships in our lives in many ways?
SANDERS: Come home (ph).
STAFFORD: And at the end of the day, are they worth it?
SANDERS: A dear friend and mentor once told me something that I have never forgotten. She said, the company cannot hug you back. Doesn't matter what company. Doesn't matter what job.
STAFFORD: Amen.
SANDERS: You got to live your life. And I don't know. There's so much that Andre is an inspiration on, but - I don't even know how to end this conversation besides saying I miss him. I miss him. I miss him. I miss him.
JONES: Yeah.
SANDERS: And I hope that people look at him and his life and hold on to all of this beauty that he brought to us for decades. That's all.
STAFFORD: I think that's a great place to end.
JONES: Yeah.
STAFFORD: Love.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: Zach, Saeed - thank you both so much for this chat. Andre, we love you.
JONES: We love you. Thank you.
STAFFORD: We love you, Andre. And we love you, Sam Sanders.
SANDERS: I love y'all, too.
JONES: We do, Sam Sanders.
SANDERS: Oh, my God. Look at this sister circle. Oh.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Sister circle.
STAFFORD: Sister circle.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: Thanks again to my two guests - Zach Stafford, journalist and MSNBC columnist and host of the iHeart podcast "In The Deep: Stories That Shape Us." And also thanks to poet Saeed Jones. His book is called "How We Fight For Our Lives." And you can read Saeed's essay all about Andre Leon Talley on his Substack. Also, make it a point to check out the film "The Gospel According To Andre" on HBO Max and also Andre's interview with Terry Gross on "Fresh Air" from 2018.
All right. Coming up, we switch gears and wrap up this week with my favorite game - Who Said That?
(SOUNDBITE OF FLEVANS' "FLICKER")
SANDERS: You're listening to IT'S BEEN A MINUTE from NPR. I'm Sam Sanders, joined this week by - got to say - two of the most iconic Who Said That guests I think we've ever had on the show. Zach, Saeed, tell folks who you are.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Iconic - I love this. I'm Zach Stafford, journalist, Sam Sanders' ex neighbor, constant contributor to our group chat.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Yes.
JONES: I am Seed Jones, a poet and essayist. I'm chaotic and always right.
STAFFORD: Saeed is always right. It's very annoying.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: He's always right. He's always right. OK. Y'all know this game. You've played it before. It is called Who Said That?
(SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, "THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF ATLANTA")
KANDI BURRUSS: Who had been saying that?
PORSHA WILLIAMS: Who said that?
KENYA MOORE: Who said that?
SANDERS: I share three quotes from the week of news. You tell me who said it or get some key words from the story. Let's just get to it. Here we go. Here's the first quote. "No, no. Listen; I'm too old, too tired...
JONES: Oh, that's Brian Cox...
SANDERS: ...And too talented."
STAFFORD: Oh, that's...
JONES: ...From "Succession."
(SOUNDBITE OF VICTORY TUNE)
STAFFORD: That's the "Succession" dude. What's his name?
JONES: It's Brian Cox.
STAFFORD: Cox. Brian.
JONES: Brian Cox.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yes. Yes.
JONES: It's mine.
SANDERS: Saeed got that point.
STAFFORD: Damn it.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: I thought we had to wait till...
SANDERS: Saeed is...
STAFFORD: ...You ended.
SANDERS: ...Always right.
STAFFORD: I thought we had to...
JONES: Oh.
STAFFORD: ...Wait till you ended. So...
JONES: OK. Wow.
STAFFORD: ...Never mind.
SANDERS: It's OK.
JONES: (Laughter).
STAFFORD: It's fine.
SANDERS: It's OK.
STAFFORD: Saeed can have the first one.
SANDERS: There are no rules in Who Said That. There are no rules.
JONES: See?
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: So I guess both of y'all, tell our listeners what this quote and this story is about.
JONES: Well, first of all, Zach, you can't be worrying about rules while talking about "Succession."
STAFFORD: Oh, tea.
JONES: (Laughter).
STAFFORD: Tea, tea...
SANDERS: There you go.
STAFFORD: ...Tea. Wow.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: No. It's...
STAFFORD: OK.
JONES: It's funny because, you know, I'm busy, so I haven't read the Jeremy Strong New Yorker profile. But I read people talking about it, and it's become such a thing that now people are asking his castmate (laughter) Brian Cox about it.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
JONES: But, you know, it just seems like Jeremy Strong is just one of those very earnest, vulnerable people who take the craft and that idea of maybe of almost method acting - like, if you play a character who's in pain, you should kind of embrace that pain yourself to evoke it. And I just love - Brian Cox was like, nope, I'm too old, too talented...
SANDERS: I'm not doing it
JONES: ...For that. I'm not doing it (laughter).
STAFFORD: Yeah, yeah. I...
SANDERS: Well, because in that New Yorker profile, a lot of Jeremy Strong's work colleagues and fellow actors basically said, in so many words, to The New Yorker, it's hard to work with him, and I'm not sure we like him. And so, of course, they end up reaching out to Brian Cox, the patriarch of this show. And in great patriarch form, he says, I'm too old for this foolishness.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: I'm coming...
JONES: Wow.
SANDERS: ...To work. And I'm going home.
STAFFORD: But it's also, like...
SANDERS: Bye-bye.
STAFFORD: ...All of their characters. Like, Jeremy Strong's character is that person that takes himself far too...
SANDERS: Yes.
STAFFORD: ...Serious at every turn. And all of them hate him. So I just thought, like art, you know, mimicking life, et cetera, et cetera, in that he's just really good at his job (laughter).
JONES: Damn.
SANDERS: There you go. And even in the real world, he cannot get a kiss from daddy. (Laughter) It's...
STAFFORD: Nope.
SANDERS: ...Just never...
STAFFORD: Still not.
SANDERS: ...Happening.
JONES: That's so creepy (laughter).
STAFFORD: Wow. This is so dark. It's so dark.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: It's so dark. We're all like...
SANDERS: I will say...
JONES: ...Embrace love. Learn from Andre...
SANDERS: Yeah.
JONES: ...Leon Talley, but...
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: But also "Succession."
STAFFORD: Also, never give love to your child that's annoying.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
DEMI ADEJUYIGBE: (Singing) All the rich white folk are going to argue. And then whoever's best is going to win a kiss from daddy.
SANDERS: All right, Saeed, you got that point. Here's the next quote. It was a cute little viral video from this week - Sigh. I really wish I was in school right now. Sigh.
STAFFORD: Oh, it's that...
SANDERS: I'm tired.
STAFFORD: It's that young boy from the local news shoveling in - where was it? - Toronto?
JONES: (Laughter).
(SOUNDBITE OF VICTORY TUNE)
SANDERS: Yes.
JONES: I missed...
STAFFORD: Yeah.
JONES: ...This.
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: Yeah. Zach, you got that.
STAFFORD: Thank you. And I...
SANDERS: All right.
STAFFORD: Shoutout to my...
SANDERS: Tell us how you knew what that was.
STAFFORD: ...Mother, who just moved to Toronto. And that's how she found it first. And I saw it early.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: But it's a young boy who's shoveling the car - the snow out the street for his family and the neighbors. I think he, quote, says, "people I don't even know." And he is over it. And I don't know his name. But he is darling.
JONES: Oh.
STAFFORD: I could tell you everything about him.
JONES: That's really funny.
STAFFORD: He's wearing glasses. He has brown hair.
SANDERS: (Laughter) It was amazing.
STAFFORD: He's, like, 9.
SANDERS: He looked...
JONES: Oh, that's hilarious.
SANDERS: ...The kid from "A Christmas Story." He was just...
STAFFORD: Yes.
SANDERS: ...So pitiful. So he's in Toronto.
JONES: (Laughter).
SANDERS: CTV News is just talking to people after a snowstorm. Poor little Carter Trozzolo is shoveling snow outside his house. He tells the camera crew, I'm tired.
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
CARTER: Really wish I was in school right now.
SANDERS: And then he says, I am shoveling snow...
(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)
CARTER: For my neighbors, friends, probably people I even don't know.
SANDERS: Probably for folks I don't even know.
STAFFORD: Yes. I don't even know (laughter).
SANDERS: He was like...
JONES: Oh, that is...
SANDERS: ...Get me out of here.
JONES: ...So funny. I love it. It's like Carter, Brian Cox, everyone is tired. Everyone has had it.
STAFFORD: I've had it.
SANDERS: Everyone is tired.
JONES: (Laughter).
SANDERS: Everyone is tired. So on the screen for this CTV News hit, below Carter's name, his title just said exhausted.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Mood.
SANDERS: Carter, I hope someone makes you some hot cocoa and lets you just rest your retired bones. Poor Carter.
JONES: Oh, poor Carter.
STAFFORD: Oh, that poor child.
SANDERS: All right, the game is tied.
JONES: Oh, look out.
SANDERS: The game is tied.
STAFFORD: Oh, here we go.
SANDERS: And this last question, this is about a game. The quote is, well, I did make - blank - and I'm not very good at it. So there you go. What's the blank?
STAFFORD: I did make - blank - and I'm not very good at it.
JONES: I did make - blank.
SANDERS: The game all your friends are playing.
JONES: Oh, Wordle.
(SOUNDBITE OF VICTORY TUNE)
SANDERS: Yes.
STAFFORD: Oh.
SANDERS: Wordle.
STAFFORD: Wow. Yeah.
JONES: (Laughter).
SANDERS: Wordle. Wordle.
STAFFORD: Damn it.
SANDERS: Starts with W. I was going to say it...
JONES: What's amazing...
SANDERS: ...Starts with W. But yeah, Wordle.
JONES: ...That I was able to get this is that I have all tweets with the word Wordle in them muted (laughter). I am so sick of...
SANDERS: So then you mute my...
STAFFORD: Wow.
SANDERS: ...Wordle tweets, Saeed?
JONES: I do. I'm sick of your Wordle tweets.
SANDERS: You mute my Wordle tweets?
JONES: If I wanted to play Wordle, if I wanted to know about Wordle, I would ask you about Wordle, Sam.
STAFFORD: I found out something heartbreaking literally this morning.
SANDERS: What?
STAFFORD: I'm playing the wrong version of Wordle.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: There's two.
JONES: Girl, you out here playing...
STAFFORD: I've been playing...
JONES: (Laughter).
STAFFORD: I'm playing the bootleg...
SANDERS: You playing...
STAFFORD: ...Version of Wordle.
SANDERS: ...Burdle (ph).
STAFFORD: Burdle.
SANDERS: You playing Turtle.
JONES: Now...
STAFFORD: Girl...
SANDERS: Zach is playing Turtle.
STAFFORD: My friend text me. He said, hey, so we've been playing the wrong Wordle for the past few weeks.
JONES: How you been playing...
STAFFORD: And I just...
JONES: ...Off-brand Wordle?
STAFFORD: Devastated. Devastated.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Yeah.
SANDERS: So we should explain...
STAFFORD: I was like...
SANDERS: ...Wordle for those - (laughter).
STAFFORD: Yes. You explain it...
JONES: You have to explain it.
STAFFORD: ...Because I been playing - I can tell you the other version of it. But you tell us the real version.
SANDERS: So first, that quote comes from Josh Wardle, W-A-R-D-L-E. He is the creator of the hit game Wordle.
JONES: (Laughter).
SANDERS: It's taken the nation by storm. He made this game for his partner because he wanted to give his partner a new little word puzzle. And basically, the premise is, you have to guess - is it five- or six-letter word? - a five-letter word. You got to guess it in six guesses. And the game will tell you each guess if the letters are in the word or not. I have taken to Wordle because I - it is one word game or puzzle that does not intimidate me. Crossword puzzles intimidate me. It's too many words. It's too many rows. Wordle is just one word, six little boxes. I like that. It's manageable. So I do my Wordle every morning with my coffee. And whenever I get it right, I let everybody on Twitter know...
JONES: OK. So let's talk about this.
SANDERS: ...Except Saeed because he muted me.
JONES: OK. Let's talk about this. Why y'all got to make y'all Wordles the timeline's problem? Sudoku, crossword people, they're able to mind their business. Why does this got to involve me?
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Wow.
STAFFORD: Saeed, let these people have joy. Let these girls have some joy.
JONES: It's like...
SANDERS: Because...
JONES: Wordle is like this every time...
SANDERS: Why? It's not just joy; it's also self-esteem.
JONES: It's like if every time someone did karaoke, they would feel the need to tweet what karaoke song they sang. I don't care. Was I there?
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: I mean, some of these girls do that, so tea for them. But what I will give people, why they're sharing their love, is that the background to this game is that it was designed by - this guy, Wordle, for his partner 'cause they were in the pandemic.
SANDERS: Yeah.
STAFFORD: So it's like an app made out of love. And, Saeed, that's the theme today.
JONES: Girl, whatever.
STAFFORD: Love conquers all.
SANDERS: There you go.
JONES: You were playing the off-brand version.
STAFFORD: Girl, I know. But I read the article.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: He was playing like you a lot, not love.
STAFFORD: Wow. I'm going to unpack with my therapist what loving the off-brand version means for me and my life.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: I will say, love is too short to fly in Wordle; it's missing one letter. And I will also say, listeners who do play, my secret to getting my Wordles, the first word I guess every day is panic.
STAFFORD: Wow.
JONES: That's deep.
STAFFORD: That's dark.
SANDERS: It works.
JONES: There's a lot going on there.
SANDERS: (Laughs) It works.
STAFFORD: Wow. I'm glad I have therapy today. This is great.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm.
SANDERS: On that note, who won the game?
JONES: Me.
STAFFORD: Saeed won.
JONES: Saeed, who is always right.
STAFFORD: Saeed is always right.
SANDERS: Saeed, who is always right.
STAFFORD: I'm going to give myself a 1.5.
SANDERS: Uh huh. Uh huh.
STAFFORD: I'm going to give myself a 1.5.
SANDERS: Saeed, who would you like to dedicate this monumental Who Said That win to?
JONES: I will dedicate it to bell hooks because, you know, we lost her recently. And because we've been talking about love so much, I wanted to say earlier, I think a great book is "All About Love" by bell hooks...
STAFFORD: Yes.
JONES: ...Where she talks about the philosophy. So if our conversations inspired you, check out "All About Love."
STAFFORD: Yes.
SANDERS: There you go. Put that Wordle down and read a book, kids.
(LAUGHTER)
STAFFORD: Tea.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: Saeed, Zach - this was just a recharge for my soul. I love talking with y'all. Y'all know that. But thanks for letting our listeners hear it this episode as well. Come back soon, all right?
STAFFORD: Call us anytime.
JONES: Absolutely. Talking with you...
STAFFORD: Wordle us. Wordle us (laughter).
JONES: ...Is like being at home. I love it.
STAFFORD: Home - also, not a five-letter word. So there you go. Can't be in Wordle. I'm learning now that I'm playing the real version tonight.
(LAUGHTER)
SANDERS: Yes. Yes.
AUNT BETTY: Now it's time to end the show as we always do. Every week, listeners share the best thing that happened to them all week. We encourage folks to brag, and they do. Let's hear a few of those submissions.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
ROBIN: Hi, Sam. This is Robin (ph) from Detroit. The best thing that happened to me this week is I went to a local Moth story slam, and I put my name in the hat and got picked. And I went up on stage and told a story, and it was really well-received by the judges and the audience. And it was so much fun. I've never done anything like that before, and I'd love to do it again sometime.
ADAM CASE: Hi, Sam. My name is Adam Case (ph). This week is our 10th wedding anniversary, my wife Alicia (ph) and I. And I'm very excited because we got married here in Chicago at City Hall. And I found the judge who married us, and he so kindly agreed to make a video that I'm going to show my wife as part of our celebration. I'm a very lucky guy.
PAOLO CASTRO: Hey, Sam. And hey, Aunt Betty. This is Paolo Castro (ph) from Indianapolis, Ind., and originally from Brazil. The best part of my week definitely is that this week I became an American citizen. I am truly and deeply grateful to all of the people who have helped me here from Day 1. I love your show. I love all you do and all the conversations as well. And who knows? Maybe someday I'll be in your show playing Who Said That with you and other guests. Cheers, my fellow American citizen. Blessings. Bye.
ROBIN: Love your show. Have a good week.
CASE: Thank you. I love the show.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: Thanks again to those listeners you heard there - Paolo, Adam and Robin. Listeners, don't forget you can share the best part of your week at any time throughout any week. Just record yourself and send that voice memo to me via email, [email protected]. That's [email protected].
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
SANDERS: All right. This week's episode was lovingly produced by Jinae West, Anjuli Sastry Krbechek, Andrea Gutierrez and Liam McBain. Our intern is Aja Drain, aka the Fresh Princess of Bel Air. Our fearless editor is Jordana Hochman, and our big boss is NPR's senior VP of programming, Anya Grundmann.
All right, listeners, till next time, be good to yourselves. I'm Sam Sanders. We'll talk soon.
(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)
Copyright © 2022 NPR. All rights reserved. Visit our website terms of use and permissions pages at www.npr.org for further information.
NPR transcripts are created on a rush deadline by an NPR contractor. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Accuracy and availability may vary. The authoritative record of NPR’s programming is the audio record.