That’s — I imagine what we’re looking for, right?

I think so.

So we just follow courtesy?

Yeah. [LAUGHS]

[LAUGHS]:

Hey!

Hi, I think we might be looking for each other.

We’re from “The New York Times.” Nice to meet you.

Nice to meet you.

Hi, how are you.

Hey.

I’m Steve.

We thought you guys were — Astead.

Astead? It’s a pleasure, pleasure.

Steven?

Yes.

Nice to meet you. I’m Caitlin.

Caitlin, pleasure.

We spent an hour at another trailhead going, where do you think they are?

I’m sorry! Did we go to the wrong one?

No, you’re the right one. We went to the wrong one. I Google mapped it this morning. I said, take me to Dreamy Draw trailhead. It said, got you! And they sent us to the one — it’s just a mile down the road.

Oh!

And it was a beautiful trailhead, but it wasn’t — and we’re saying, wow, this doesn’t look at all like what people described to us. Because we’ve gone to multiple trailheads, right? And this is the first time we’ve come to Dreamy Draw because we heard the last time, they had such a good turnout and such a positive response out here. I’ll get the —

OK, cool. We’ll stay out of y’all’s way for a second.

Park the car and we’ll get all set up.

No problem. Remind me your name again?

My name is Susan Ashley.

Susan, OK. Astead.

Can I get one of those?

A pin?

Well, you know, I think your parents — we’ll ask your parents and see if that’s OK.

Well, my dad’s not here.

How about your mom?

Yeah.

She’s over there. I bet you she would be — she would love it.

Well, I’ll tell you, why don’t you drag her over? But we can’t give it to you without talking to her. Because it has some sensitive stuff on it.

Sensitive?

Yeah, and we just want to make sure your parents are OK with that.

What? Like what?

Well, it’s just an issue that is a grown-ups issue. So it’s something that you normally don’t see the kids involved in. So just see what she says. She might be perfectly OK with it.

Hey, bub. What’d you learn?

I’m just trying to get one of those pins.

Well, yeah. So we decided we’d better talk to mom before we — before we give out a sticker. You ready?

Yep.

Are you registered in Maricopa County.

Yeah, absolutely.

OK. Do you know what you’re signing?

Yes.

Good. OK, now, carefully printing first and last name, because this is how they find you on the voting rolls.

So what is this — what is this?

I’m going to have your mom explain it to you on the drive home

I will explain it to you.

It’s 5/11 today.

Thank you.

You did a perfect job. She takes instruction well.

Military.

OK. So now your mom, she’s now said it’s OK for you to take this. So you can either have a pin or a sticker, whichever one you’d like.

Which one would you take?

The sticker is so good on backpacks, hats.

Is it? Does it stay?

It does.

OK, cool. Let’s do this one, all right? Thank y’all. Appreciate what you do.

Can I ask you one question?

My name’s Astead, this is Caitlin. We’re from “The New York Times.” We’re talking to people about the referendum, and partially why they are motivated to sign. You said you knew already what it was. I’m curious how this came on your radar?

This has been on my radar for a long, long time. I’ve had friends in situations where their health was threatened, where the quality of life for not only the mother who was pregnant and their existing family, and the baby would have been negatively impacted by the addition to the family. I understand how our planet itself is facing crises when it comes to healthcare, medical care, with just —

Are you on TV?

— no — with just sustainability. Overall, we can’t sustain the rate at which we’re repopulating — so just a whole lot of reasons. And I never had to face this choice, but my mother has. I’ve had three best friends who have. And I understand. It’s just not — it’s not right for anybody to make that decision for somebody else.

Are you someone who considers themselves like Democrat, Republican? Do you see that outside of it?

Moderate. I just — issue by issue.

Arizona’s place in this election is so big, and on this issue is going to be really big too. Are you talking to people about this? How much has this been —?

I have three jobs and I’m in school and I’m a single mom and I take care of my mom. I talk to nobody.

[LAUGHS]: She said, I don’t talk to nobody, but I know what I feel about this.

I know. Yeah. Absolutely, appreciate y’all.

Have a good one.

Yeah, y’all stay hydrated.

There’s just a yellow snake over there.

Do you guys have water?

A snake?

Yeah, snake holes.

Snake holes.

Yeah, we took some back trails and saw snakes, so be careful.

All right.

Come on, honey bun.

Have a good day.

Bye, y’all.

Have a good day!

I didn’t feel that was exploiting the child too much, did you?

Hey! You didn’t at all. He was adorable.

[PIANO MUSIC]

How often have you been going out to collect signatures?

Well, we’re out here six days a week. We’re trying trailheads. But we go to parks. We go to bookstores. We go to nice little bars.

This might seem intuitive, but can you explain why it’s this issue that you think motivated you specifically about it?

Yes. So I was absolutely in despair about what was happening here. And for me, this issue, I said, OK, this is something I can do that will have an impact, that will drive people to the polls. Because we have a big problem here with not being able to get the younger demographic and get the minority demographic. And we’ve got to get those —

Out to vote.

— out to vote, yes. We’ve got to get those people out to vote. And I figured that this cause, which is also very dear to my heart because — I was 16 when “Roe versus Wade” came out. And I never had to worry about this issue at all. And I am outraged at what they’re trying to take, the grabbiness of what is happening here.

I cannot believe that in this day and age, that they’re interfering in this thing at all. But it’s a very powerful and resonates quite a bit with the voters. And that’s a great thing. So if we can get these people who sign this out to the polls, that will be wonderful.

Absolutely. As soon as the 1864 was passed — when we were out petitioning, we would get maybe a page — we were getting four and five and six pages at a time. People were lined up to come and sign the petition. And they would wait in line to be able to do that. Now — and again, occasionally we’ll get a little bit of a rush. But for the most part, it’s onesie, twosie, threesie.

But when we had a dozen people in line waiting for this, it was exciting, but also kind of upsetting that it took that to get people to want to sign the initiative. So again, we were crushed by the fact that they did it, but really thankful that it actually got some people who were kind of on the fence, or thinking it’s going to be OK without my help. They realized.

And honestly, that was part of us. We were home, looking at the television, screaming at it, complaining. And I said, we can scream and complain at the television, or we can spleen —

Are you a registered voter?

I am.

In Maricopa County.

I am.

Do you know what you’re signing? This is a pro-choice women’s reproductive freedom?

Yep. I. Already signed this one at Changing Hands.

Thank you for the support. The women in your life thank you.

Do you need a pen?

Tony.

Astead. Nice to meet you. Just curious, you said you already signed. How did this issue come on your radar?

Oh, It’s been on my radar for quite some time. It’s been very disappointing that Democrats in general haven’t prioritized codifying “Roe” even before the Supreme Court loading with Trump. And it’s an important issue, no matter where you stand on it morally. If you just look at it from the perspective of, so many things can go wrong during a pregnancy, right?

And besides all that, it’s still just between the woman and her doctor and her family. And that’s where the choice should lie. And I don’t believe the state should be involved in that whatsoever. And yeah, I’m proud to see that my community is out here lobbying for these types of issues.

Are you someone who considers himself a Democrat, Republican, Independent, anything?

I probably would have identified as a Democrat for majority of time. But they’re probably more right I than I am. I feel like I would probably put myself more in an independent camp now.

What’s shifted?

To be perfectly honest with you, is probably around the 2016 election. A candidate like Trump doesn’t come to fruition if the Democratic Party actually listens to its constituents and prioritizes the issues that we talk about.

You’re saying, Democrats should see Trump ascending as a Democratic failure?

Correct, absolutely. Because you lost a lot of Independents. You lost a lot of people, again, that are talking about the real things that are happening right now in our communities. Like, you can’t buy a house in the city now. We’re not talking about those things and doing anything about them at a legislative level that actually pushes — that makes the middle class stronger, that gives opportunities to lower class coming up.

I don’t really believe that the Democratic Party even understands what their base is. And so am I OK with more of the same if it means that we don’t have Trump back in power? Then yeah. But am I disappointed overall about the directionality of politics and like — yeah, where we’re going as a Democratic Party? Like, I’m not.

So what I hear is, you might end up voting for Biden in the fall, but you see it as more of an anti-Trump vote than like an endorsement of the Democratic Party’s direction.

Yeah. I think we have to do a better job at a grassroots level to make our voices heard. I love seeing things like this, people out here lobbying for issues that matter to them. I think at a community level we have to open conversations more. People just in general feel very divided because they just dig their heels into issues, and they don’t want to listen to the other side.

To be perfectly honest with you, when I was younger, I used to be a pro-life advocate. I was brought up that way. That’s what I believed. And it wasn’t until I had a real conversation with a dear friend of mine that had to make a difficult choice, and it opened my eyes. But if I wasn’t open to that conversation with that person that was willing to share her story with me, I don’t know that I start that path.

Yeah, I hear you.

And so, yeah, I think on both sides, we need to listen. And we need to be open to having these discussions. I was born and raised here. This is my backyard, my community. And I’ve seen it go from a hard red to a purple state. So I know progress is possible. But we’re not doing enough.

Cool.

Thank you.

Thank you so much. You can get to your hike. I appreciate it.

Yeah, have a great day.

Pleasure meeting you both.

Yeah, thank you.

Nice to meet you. Hook it on.

Reproductive freedom for women?

Obviously yes, 100 percent.

OK, are you —

Have you signed our petition yet?

What’s this?

This is women’s reproductive choice.

I don’t believe in that. I believe that choice is for the baby.

Got it.

Thank you.

Have you signed the initiative yet?

Are you Arizona voters?

Yep, I signed already.

You’ve signed, thank you. Have you signed, sir?

I will absolutely sign.

Perfect. So are you registered voter?

I am.

Are you in Maricopa County?

I do.

There you go. You’ve answered everything properly. And do you know what you’re signing?

Yes.

OK.

Can we just get your names real quick?

Yeah, Morgan.

Rachel.

Morgan?

You said that the issue was like something you already knew about. How did this get on your radar?

Yeah, it’s just a long running issue within Arizona. And it’s really unfortunate because we already have enough problems here. But stating what women and women can’t do with their bodies is just — it’s gross. It’s disgusting. It’s not OK.

Have you guys always voted? Do you associate yourself with a particular political party or identify with one?

Yeah, I’ve always been a voter, Independent and Democrat.

How about you?

I would say — I’m an inconsistent voter, but more, I guess, Democrat-leaning Independent.

Obviously this is going to be a unique presidential election because it’s going to be a rematch between Biden and Trump. When we talk to people about that, we get a lot of range of opinions about the fact that it’s going to be the two same candidates again. What do you think about that? And how are you feeling about the job that President Biden’s doing, if you don’t mind me asking?

I think President Biden is doing a great job. I think that the economy has been in its best in many, many years, even before Trump or Obama. I mean, of course, things change, times change, things become more expensive. That’s just kind of how everything goes.

And that’s — you can’t buy things for a penny anymore.

Did you vote in the last presidential election?

I did.

Do you who I ask you’ve voted for? Biden, Trump?

We — I went voted for Biden.

Do you think you’re going to vote again in this one?

No, I don’t think so. I think the voting climate right now is just really exhausting for a lot of people. The two-party system is frustrating, only having the same two options. I don’t think we should have deep senior citizens in office making decisions for the country. They’re antiquated. Their beliefs are old. It’s just not progressive. It’s not what — the direction we should be going.

You’re saying the candidate options that are presented now make you not want to vote?

Yeah, absolutely not. It’s just — yeah, it’s either one or the other, and neither is really great.

Yeah. I mean, we heard how you feel about Trump. How do you feel about Trump?

I’m not a big fan. I think he elicits a lot of anger and a lot of separation between people. It’s not a good look for our country. And it’s not a community-driven thing. It doesn’t make people believe each other and help each other out. It just creates walls. And that’s a bummer. So yeah.

But he’s not — it’s not enough for you — you wouldn’t vote for Biden to stop him, it seems.

No.

Why not?

I don’t necessarily think it stops it. It’s just a two-party system. It’s two groups of people perpetually screaming at each other. A vote’s not going to help. Yeah.

But it seems like what is motivating you all is things like this referendum. You may not want those candidates back, but you do want stuff like abortion rights to be enshrined.

Yes.

Yes.

Got it. What were you going to say? Sorry.

Would that bring you to the polls if this is on the ballot?

Absolutely, yeah. 100 percent.

But would you skip over the presidential race?

[LAUGHS]: I mean, if I’m there, I’m there. I’ll probably make a choice and vote. But otherwise, I’m not super interested in it. Yeah.

Thank you so much. We really appreciate your time.

Thank you.

Have a great day. Bye.

Let me just figure out where we’re going.

Can you introduce yourself and tell me what you do?

My name is Athena Salman.

I am the director of Arizona campaigns for Reproductive Freedom For All. I mobilize 75,000 members that we have in Arizona to move reproductive rights and freedoms in every single congressional district in the state. We’re working to flip the state legislature. We’re working to pass the ballot initiative and ultimately secure huge reproductive rights victories in Arizona, moving forward.

And you’re a former state legislator.

And I’m a former state legislator.

When I was in college, that is when we got a Republican trifecta. So the governor was Republican, the legislature was controlled by Republicans. And prior to that with the former governor, she was vetoing a lot of the really harsh bills that were passing through the legislature. But that’s what really got me involved, the budget cuts to education, the attacks on women’s rights, on immigration rights.

So in 2018, not only did we flip the US Senate seat, but we also picked up enough seats for the Republicans to have a one vote majority. And that’s where we’ve been stuck ever since. But it is so, so close. And then —

— in 2022. I’ll never forget that moment. People who I had known to be lifelong Republicans, having their voices heard at the ballot box, doing the research of like, OK, you know what? I really don’t care about the party anymore. I want to know, who are the candidates that are going to fundamentally protect this right?

And then in the 2022 election cycle, we saw huge victories with Governor Hobbs, who campaigned on the issue of abortion, defeating extremist Kari Lake. And then also very significantly, is attorney general Kris Mayes, who won that seat — statewide seat — by 280 votes. And now she’s just one of our most vocal active defenders of reproductive freedom in Arizona.

With Reproductive Freedom For All, we are continuing to work to flip the legislature so we have a majority that supports reproductive freedom. And then, of course, we’re one of the founding members, and we’re part of the coalition to secure the right to abortion in the Constitution through the citizen initiative so that in the future, our rights aren’t up in the air, and people aren’t being whiplashed back and forth, based on what a politician or a judge does.

Can you take me through what the November referendum would include, both in terms of abortion access and the possible exceptions after?

Yeah, absolutely. So first, what we are talking about here is a citizen initiative that will actually have the effect of protecting the legal right to abortion in Arizona. At the end of the day, the language got put in a place where we know that it very much closely restores the rights that we had under “Roe v. Wade.”

What that means is, up until fetal viability, the right of abortion is intact and protected for anyone who is seeking care. And after viability, there is the room for the decision to seek abortion care to be protected between the provider and the patient for health reasons, which includes mental health reasons.

The reality with pregnancy is you cannot predict every complication. And so that is why it’s so important for that provision to be protected of after viability. That’s the bottom line here. And as a former elected official and policymaker, you can’t legislate every single reason why someone would need an abortion and terminate a pregnancy.

But what you can do is you can make sure that when someone has made that decision and needs to cross that bridge, that there is a way for them to get access to that healthcare when they need it, free from punishment or judgment.

And when we say fetal viability, is there a weeks time to that?

Really, that’s determined by providers.

You know, when it became clear that the ballot measure was probably going to get enough signatures to appear in November, in political world, there was a lot of sense of how much that shifts the presidential election that, with such a consensus issue and such an important state, that the best thing that could happen to Joe Biden maybe doesn’t have to do with him at all, but might be this thing happening in the state. Does the way that this referendum affects Donald Trump versus Joe Biden, is that part of the calculus in it?

No, because when you look at the partisan breakdown, it’s a third, a third, a third — a third Democrat, a third Republican, a third unaffiliated voters. And even in the last few election cycles, candidates who campaigned on the right to legal abortion ended up winning and securing those seats.

So the voters are smart. They do their research. And when you compare the two track records, Donald Trump appointed the justices who undermined and overturned 50 years of legal precedent protecting the right to abortion. Our current president has made a commitment to protect and restore a federal right to abortion. So at the end of the day, the voters already see that contrast, and that’s what they’re going to be going to the ballot box.

Even though Donald Trump is currently saying that he doesn’t support a federal abortion ban, you’re saying, the past is still enough to hold on to.

Well, yeah. We are in this mess. Arizona is in this mess because of Donald Trump and because of what he did to the Supreme Court. So voters — voters will remember that.

[GENTLE MUSIC]

Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

Yeah, yeah.

What is Bunco?

Oh, OK, it’s a dice game. OK? You take dice, and there’s one through six on the dice. And you have to get — first, you throw for ones, and you throw for twos, and you throw for threes, and you throw for four — all the way up to six. Then we rest, we have a little snack and then we do round two.

[CHEERING]

Somebody got a bunco. They’ll ring the bell. Hang on, I got to go.

All right. The Bunco is when you roll — say we’re rolling ones. If I get three ones — I got one. But if I get three ones, it’s a Bunco. There’s two.

[CHEERING]

That’s 21 points. That’s what you need.

[INTERPOSING VOICES]

They get a little wild, huh?

Can you introduce yourself? Tell me who you are and what you do.

My name is Pamela Sheyne. I’m a retired R.N. of 38 years. I retired from Summerlin Hospital where I did open heart for years. And I retired the first of the year. And so I’ve lived here for 20 years off and on, but we’ve traveled a lot. So mostly, though, I worked in — because of my specialty doing open heart, I had to go to Las Vegas to do it.

I went to go sign it. And I said, I’ll help. I’ll try to get signatures. That’s how I found out about it. Because I researched it and I said oh my god, where can I sign this? Because I heard about it. Then they changed it — it was so barbaric. To me it was like, what, are you taking my rights?

What are you going to do, to take my voting rights away next? What are you going to do next? I mean, if you’re going to do this — we’ve only been voting for 100 years. What else are you going to take? You’re going to start taking birth control away and IVF? And I was just like, I have to do something. I don’t want to just sit at home and whine about it.

I want to do something proactive. And if that is getting signatures to put a petition onto the ballot so that we can vote — all Arizonans can vote, not just Republicans or Democrats or Independents — everybody. And so for me, it’s not a matter of, do I agree with abortion, do I practice abortion? That’s not my thing. My thing is about the choice of women having the option, if they have no other option to do this. And it shouldn’t be taken away.

It’s a very, very red area. And I’m not a red person, OK? I used to be a Republican, I hate to admit. But I’m no longer a Republican. Ever since the Trump era started, I changed my ticket. I said, that’s it. I can’t — I don’t believe in this. I didn’t vote for him. I won’t vote for him. I never will vote for him.

But living here in this area has been horrendous for me. Having to watch people that — my good friends believe in something that they — it’s just like they’re brainwashed. It’s so bad here.

So you’re a volunteer for Arizona For Abortion Access. What’s it like gathering signatures for this abortion ballot initiative here?

Sometimes it’s kind of tough. Because you’re dealing with a lot of preset notions. There’s some that’s very religious. There’s some there’s not. There’s some that are like, well, that just goes against everything. You’re a baby killer. I’m like, I’m not a baby killer. I’m a nurse. How could I be a baby killer? I’m not about killing children. But it’s just their backwards thinking. And most of the women, like you’ll see, are a older group here. And most of them have already lived their lives. But it’s their children and their grandchildren that now have these laws. They have the freedom to choose. Why don’t you want the same thing for your children? And that’s the thing I try to get across. Why don’t you want the same thing for your children that you had?

That’s your pitch?

Yeah, basically.

Can I listen to you do your thing?

Sure, sure.

Hi, there.

I had to tell everybody.

How are you?

Guys, I’m bringing a petition today to everybody. So this is to put on the ballot for all Arizonans. You don’t have to be a Republican, a Democrat or Independent. It’s for all women who are here tonight. So if you want to sign, this to put the law on the books for us to have rights back and turn the rights back over so that we have rights for abortion. So you only have to be a registered Mojave voter. So if anybody’d like to sign, I have it here.

I would.

Gorgeous.

It is.

I need to get my glasses.

What exactly —

Nobody’s first name, but everyone —

Nobody judges nobody.

That’s right. When you have that right, and everybody else should have the right, too, right?

OK, I’ll sign it.

You don’t have to, it’s all right.

I know.

To me, killing any life is against what I believe.

It’s your body. You should have the right to choose. This should have never been taken away.

But if you’re in the heat of passion and you spread your legs and you get pregnant and then, oh shoot, I didn’t want that baby — you gave up your right to control your whole body once you have another baby in there.

I signed the paper for abortion because I have a granddaughter that was very sick during her pregnancy in Bullhead City two years ago. And the doctor could not perform abortion. The baby died inside of her before they could take it out. And it’s very sad. I’m hoping that the abortion become legal, specially for certain case.

What’s your name?

Judy McClanahan.

Nice to meet you. I’m Caitlin. So when Pam came around with the petition, what did you do?

Signed.

Can you tell me why?

Because I believe women should have the right to an abortion or not.

Is there a political party that you identify with the most?

Republican. I’m 100 percent for Donald Trump. And I think Joe Biden has done everything he could to ruin our country.

Are you planning on voting in November?

Oh, yes.

Do you feel in line with your party on abortion?

No, no. I don’t look at it politically. I look at it as a woman. And even if the Democrats are for it and the Republicans aren’t, that doesn’t sway my opinion.

Thank you so much for talking to me. I really appreciate it.

Sure, anytime.

Thank you. And can I ask you all my questions now?

You can ask me questions, but I don’t like to talk about politics.

Can you introduce yourself?

My name is Gail Ann Maxim.

So when the signature page came around, what did you do?

I signed it because I think it’s — women should be able to make a choice whether they can get an abortion or not. I don’t think that the government should be telling them they can’t, and it’s against the law. Yeah.

Is there a political party that you identify with?

You know, I’m signed up Democrat. But normally if I vote, I vote for what I feel is right. I don’t always go along with a Democrat, no.

Are you planning on voting in November or do you think you will?

Yeah. I need to vote because every vote counts, so yes.

Do you know who you would vote for at this point?

You know what? I’m going to vote for other stuff, but I don’t think I’m going to vote for a president, because I don’t want either one.

So if abortion does get on the ballot, do you think you would vote on that issue?

Yes, I would.

Thank you so much.

You’re welcome.

Thank you.

Sherry.

Sherry, it’s nice to meet you. I’m Caitlin.

Hi, Caitlin.

I’m not against it, because I feel that you should have a choice. It’s your body. And I would hope that they would use good common sense and do it because there’s a reason to do it, not just because, oh, I don’t want a baby. It’s just so hard to say because you’re not in that person’s life. You don’t know what all the circumstances are. We can sit here and say, oh, well, she should do this, this and this. But you don’t know.

Is there a political party that you identify with?

Not really. I just — I really don’t know. I look at both sides. My one son is very, very liberal — very liberal. And my husband is very conservative, so we don’t talk too much about it.

Do you usually vote?

I used to. I didn’t last year. I’m going to try to this year, yeah.

What changed? Was there a thing that changed?

No, just — I think life just kind of got in the way. And the ballot came and then we had a different address, and this and that. But I need to do that. I really do, I know that.

Is there an issue that’s most important to you?

[SIGHS]: That’s a big one that we’re talking about.

Abortion?

Yes, definitely. And I don’t know. There’s so much out there going on right now with the taxes and this and that. And I — I don’t know. I like to think I’m pretty liberal, too. But then moving out here was kind of a little change for us.

When you say abortion is one that matters for you, what do you look for in a politician on abortion? Like, what do you believe about it, and what are you hoping to see in your government?

Well, I would hope he would put that, like you said on the ballot, where there’s women’s rights, for one thing, that we have a choice. But like I said, you don’t know what someone’s going through. And I hate to say, oh, yeah, I’m pro-life, and then stand there and say, you shouldn’t have done that because — it’s got to be a choice.

It’s your body, you know? And I was not married and I got pregnant and I went to Planned Parenthood. And I got this wonderful lady — and I was not young. So it wasn’t like, I can handle this. And I said, I don’t know what to do. And she said, it’s your choice. It’s your body, she said. So you have to decide. And don’t let him tell you, you should do this, this. It’s not happening to him.

And that always kind of stuck with me. Because it’s so true. I think that’s what happens to women. Their partner will say, we just can’t do this. You better go do that. Well, that’s wrong. That’s up to her.

What did you do?

Kept him. Yeah, he travels all over the world. Just has a wonderful life. Yeah. And I’m so proud for him to do that. And he makes a difference, being a teacher. So, you’ve got — each individual is going to be so different. It can be their age. They can be — if they’re 10 years old or 12 years old, yeah. Let’s think about this, and the quality of life that that baby’s going to have, or the mama’s going to have.

If you had to choose between Trump and Biden, do you know what you would do?

[EXHALES]: That’s a tough one.

Do you feel like Trump is where you are on abortion?

I don’t follow him that much. I almost feel like, if it’s on a given day, [LAUGHS]: you know? Well, maybe that sounds good today. We’re going to get this and this. And then tomorrow, I’m going to change my mind. I feel like he can be very, very edgy, I guess, is a good word.

And so it seems like what you’re saying is there’s a world where in November, you might vote for Trump, and then you might also vote for this abortion initiative.

Yes, that’s true.

All right. I think that’s all I got. Thank you so much for talking to me.

I have my thoughts on it. But like I said, it’s just — I don’t know. It’s kind of hard. Like she said, our women’s rights. And I like to think back in the day, I would be one that would be out there really holding my little stick up, or whatever. Because women were, and still are, treated differently, unfortunately. And they’ll say oh, no. No, we are not equal. We just aren’t. And it shows. When push comes to shove and it gets down to the bottom line, we are not.

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