Commons:Deletion requests/File:QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg

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This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg

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This is not an English-only file. Note: Azerbaijani-language characters are used to name the towns of the disputed region. Nowhere are Armenian-language characters. Since this map is on the English-version of the Wikipedia page, I recommend it's deletion. The previous map had the same issues; likely the next one will have the same issues. Readability in English is compromised, and mainly neutrality is violated. It may be suitable for the Azerbaijani-version of this Wikipedia page. Furthermore, the file title is incorrect. The title in English is Karabakh not Qarabagh. SacredForest (User talk:SacredForest) 02:57, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose: First of all, Armenian characters aren't even used for Armenian cities, so it's not a matter of politics but rather simply because it's easier to type with Latin characters. Second, you can't even see the name of the file on the Wikipedia page itself, so why would it matter? RBolton123 (talk) 04:58, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your reply. Yes, I agree that the Armenian characters are not being used here for anything at all. How to use one language and not the other? I don't mean to be so critical as I did not create a map myself. However, didn't older versions show everything in the disputed territory in English? How can this be made more neutral because Azerbaijan characters are used for both Azerbaijan & the disputed territory, but Armenian characters are nowhere. Why change the title of the map? Just to maintain strict neutrality in a regional conflict about whose territory this is, especially in light of some rhetoric. This is the Wikipedia page using translations in English for names. For example, on the Spanish-language page, the region would be called Alto Karabaj in translation, yes? In Catalan, it would be Alt Karabakh, and so on. Thank you, RBolton, for working on this page & for the discussion. Could you share where older map versions are stored, if anywhere? There only seems to be very recent ones that are similar in terms of labels.

Strong Oppose:Azerbaijani and Armenian characters are not supported by most programs(ə, կ ..). City names (Some villages) are added bilingually. Most of the map is in English. Just having "Qarabagh" in the file's name does not require that file be deleted. We can change the name of file but there is no problem in its international use.You can criticize the map, suggest corrections, but I don't think it makes sense to suggest deleting the map because of the small details.Because the detailed map is prepared in about a week.---Emreculha (talk) 08:30, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep:, settlement names are in Azerbaijani because it is Azerbaijan. Logical. Beshogur (talk) 11:24, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have now updated the map to show Azeri and Armenian place names next to each other in equal font size for the sake of neutrality. I don't necessarily think that using Armenian town names in Latin letters instead of Armenian letters is a problem - I would even argue that it makes the map more neutral with regards to readability of the Armenian names as most non-Armenians can't read the Armenian script. If the map is to be further improved by consensus English names I don't have a problem with that as long as it does not reduce readability significantly, but I would argue that in its present form - the format of the map is sufficient for use on the 2020 Nagorno-Karabakh conflict article on Wikipedia. The issue regarding that neutral and reliable sources need to be used to display claims of captured areas can still be discussed I think, but that's another issue. AntonSamuel (talk) 12:14, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep obviously Solavirum (talk) 14:04, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. It is better. However, I will check with others if this is okay or if it is best to have Armenian characters for titles included. So, let's not close this just yet, ok? We know that the world is using English in many, many places. With the previous map, for readers of news in English, areas could not be located. "Stepanakert", "Martuni", etc. which are mentioned in this very article could not be found. I don't think that makes the article and map coincide/mutually readable. I wonder if you could share name of the software you are using, as all the responsibility falls on you to make such changes. This responsibility to create could be shared, and then you could simply sometimes suggest changes to maps updated by others (and you wouldn't have to make all the effort of changing). In this specific instance of software, are you sure Armenian characters are not supported as Azeribaijan characters are present? In terms of naming the file, it is always being updated & posted, yes? Couldn't the new maps simply use the title of this article Karabakh for future versions? I think it's a simple rename. Because, when you click on the map, the file title in the URL now differs from the article title's spelling. Again, this compromises readability, consistency, & neutrality. It is always best to remain neutral.

SacredForest, I Updated the map. I added 3 names for a town (2 Latin and 1 Armenian Name)--Emreculha (talk) 16:35, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: Completely ridiculous reason. You could have requested the changes or the file to be moved, but to delete the image is nonsense. That being said, I support to move the file, perhaps to something like "KarabakhWar(or Conflict)Map(2020).svg". Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 19:30, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep until further territorial updates applied on the map based on both Armenian and Azerbaijani side of the story. Latin characters are intelligible in several languages, alternately Azerbaijani names of Artsakh/Karabakh should be preceded by English characters in favour of neutrality, also the Armenian font size needs to be bigger, it's not readable even the capital. سیمون دانکرک (talk) 21:36, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose:Keep it

I can read the Armenian, but it is unreasonable to think that the map does not show the Armenian alphabet and should be deleted. This map of Armenia is to help readers understand the approximate location, but almost no one understands Armenian or except Armenians. People can’t read special letters such as ə and ç in Azerbaijani. You can make maps based on different languages ​​to solve this problem (such as Arabic, Cyrillic, and pseudonyms), instead of deleting the picture.

Strong oppose: Why are you even deleting this?

Nomination for deleting this piece of art is absurd. Just rename the file if it's such a problem. --Rr016 (talk) 18:23, 8 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is simply not absurd. You didn't see the original map? The disputed territory's towns were only listed in Azerbaijan script, yet this is not Wikipedia:AZ. In this EN article, Stepanakert & Martuni were mentioned in the text of the article, but couldn't be found anywhere on the map. This is why I suggested the deletion. A map should show the areas the article discusses. When there was only Azerbaijan script in the disputed territory, these places could no longer be found. You can compare how Stepanakert & Martuni are written in English (in the article) & how they are written in Azerbaijan. Totally unreadable to anyone but readers of the Azerbaijan language. I just have to say, the arguments against having Armenian characters would apply to Azerbaijan characters too. There's nothing absurd about this: if you look at the names in the Azerbaijan-script for Stepanakert & Martuni, for example, they are totally unreadable to English-language readers (much the same as Armenian characters for the same areas would be). There is no reason to have Azerbaijan script and not Armenian, both would be often unreadable to people who do not read Azerbaijan or Armenian. Do you see what I mean? Not sure why there are differences in script size... Certainly, it's very challenging to have all 3! Does anyone have any ideas about this? Could all three titles be made smaller to fit, yet still be in bold so cities stand out? Would you please consider renaming the map to match the article's title for consistency's sake &, mainly, sizing up the map quite a bit because even when clicking on it, some letters are teeny tiny. If these changes can be discussed & settled upon, maybe we don't need to delete this but could instead keep working on alterations. Thank you for the changing so far. It is improving steadily! Thank you for responsively engaging on this topic. As I mentioned before, it would be wonderful to know the name of the map-making software you're using, if you wouldn't mind sharing the name. Other people could contribute with these tasks of updating or creating maps. It wouldn't have to just be your effort all the time — Preceding unsigned comment added by SacredForest (talk • contribs)

Strong oppose:Keep it The file is very useful. The deletion reasons are not plausible.Fullscaledx (talk) 16:33, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kept: no valid reason for deletion. --Anatoliy (talk) 21:51, 18 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.
  • sorry: Strong oppose : keep it (misunderstood the oppose / keep-system ... I'm against the deletion, and to me it's not really important, how a citys or villages name is written or if the filename is written in even japanese letters) only to add a completely out-of-EN-wiki-view: coming from the german wikipedia, this map is the only graphical resource, to kind of geographically sort this conflict region globally ... without this map this had to be done with other sources ... if that guy, that spoke for deletion, can't offer a "better" version of this map, it makes no sense, to even talk / discuss about deletion ... and - to bring it to a peak - who want's to delete any image / map with language errors / mistakes in content and / or filename, may vote for deletion of a high percentage of explanation maps / images all over ALL wikis (english, german, spanish, ... mention it, it may fit) ... <sarcasm on>daher bin ich dafür, alle nicht deutschen Wikipedia-Inhalte kompromisslos zu löschen<sarcasm off> ... so greetings to the creator of this map: keep your good work 93.243.229.227 08:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

File:QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg

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The complexity of the first version of this map, indicates it was either imported from another tool or carefully traced from a source map. The claim of 'own work' is by itself not credible, as nobody makes up a map this complex without referring to a professional published map. There must be tracability for verification that COM:L is met and that the source used matches the map detail and is suitably public domain or on a creative commons release compatible with the license chosen.

Per COM:AGF, asking for evidence to verify copyright is not a presumption of bad faith. Fæ (talk) 20:02, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Emreculha is the author if it. He might have an answer. Solavirum (talk) 20:06, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: Fæ,Solavirum, I accept your criticism if I made an error on the License Issue while uploading the file. Wikipedia is very sensitive to copyright issues. It may have advanced criteria. This free licensed file was used (It has already been noted that the file can be re-edit). It was later transferred to Adobe Photoshop. Zoomed in, manual boundaries widened. Highways have been drawn. Region names were written by hand. Borders have been set. The file was first uploaded to Commons in JPG format. JPG version is still on Commons. You can check. It was decided that the JPG version was of poor quality. It was decided not to be used in the article. Then it was converted to SVG format using Adobe Illustrator. Updated day by day. I may have entered this information incomplete because I loaded the file from the "FAST UPLOAD" option. Missing information on the license can be fixed, but I am strongly against deleting the map---Emreculha (talk) 20:31, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The order of events then was File:Azerbaijan relief location map.jpg was converted to File:Azerbaijan location map.svg, which is credible as it's a perfect overlay. The copyright statements on those files are not really correct on these as they are not literally 'own work', but exported from Natural Earth (public domain) and then edited. The distinction is that nobody should be making retrospective CC-BY-SA claims on elements of the map that are verifiably public domain, such as the terrain details.
However comparing the subject of this DR File:QarabaghWarMap(2020).svg (first uploaded version) to the location map does not match up for the purposes of copyright validation. In particular there are lots of fine details of Lake Sevan that don't match, which are features that cannot be deduced if that jpg were traced, such as the peninsular shape at Sevan itself, which is just a smooth blob in the location map and its jpg version. There's also the problem that the location map does not go as far as Aparan, so where did those details come from, for example the lake at Kuchak? --Fæ (talk) 20:57, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Fæ,The map was outright reset first. Because it was quite complicated. However, later lakes were added by enlarging them. Dimensions may change during enlargement and repainting. For example, the lake with the Xudaferin bridge was not on the map. It was added by users who changed it later. The same is true for borders. You make them thicker, if necessary, you retouch them manually. Many waterways were deleted when the map was reset and then manually re-added. If you have used these programs, you will understand or I hope I could explain. If you say, you cannot delete this map that much, you cannot edit it. The regulation on Commons is partially valid. Retouching is done to some extent. I accept your criticism. However, do not forget that borders can be drawn manually when necessary, and lakes, waterways and even highways can be redrawn as I said before. (My English isnt expert level, i use Translate, i apologise if i will make mistake) --Emreculha (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Emreculha: where did you get the lake from? It's not the source you provided above. Magog the Ogre (talk) (contribs) 01:22, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Magog the Ogre:I have described it before, let me repeat. The map has been imported into Photoshop. It was raised (grown together in the lake). Borders are mixed. The boundaries were extended and thickened in accordance with the truth. It is described in more detail above. Converted to JPG format. It was then loaded into Adobe Illustrator and made into Vector Illustration. Village and city names were added by hand writing. You can select and edit any detail on the map, enlarge or shrink it as much as you want, and crop it. So if the Lake on the Map is 20x20 px, you can select the map and change it and enlarge it to 50x50 px. There was no lake in the Xudaferin area on the map. Added by other users. You can find this in the map history of the conflicts in the Xudaferin area.--Emreculha (talk) 10:10, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose Per above. HersiliaAramazd (talk) 10:54, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: per Emreculha's comment. Solavirum (talk) 13:03, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong Oppose: maybe is the best map made about a to a conflict. Tetsou TheIronman--Tetsou TheIronman (talk) 22:30, 26 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose per above. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 10:38, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Info Our collegiate concern is to be able to validate copyright, meeting the policy requirements of COM:L, COM:DW and COM:AGF. As of this moment, this is all extremely vague.
Regardless of the map being useful and probably educational, it lacks verifiable sources and it is not possible to compare the details of the physical map of the areas depicted with source maps. If folks want this map to be a quality reference for sister projects, then a well sourced approach for content must be verifiable, not "trust me" personal claims about the history of conflicts in the area, which may just boil down to speculation.
Deletion requests are not a popularity vote, what has to be done here is spell out the way copyright can be validated so that in future years any reasonable person can understand it and verify it. --Fæ (talk) 11:03, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These are not "trust me", these are verified by third parties, please check the interactive map on the template, and the article in whole. Beshogur (talk) 19:10, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The image page makes no claims about a template or an article that may address copyright verification. --Fæ (talk) 19:25, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Armenian side has accepted the fact they retreated from Qubadli, I'm not sure how else Azerbaijani side can take over Qubadli without taking over cities such as Hadrut, Fizuli, Zengilan and Jebrayil, regarding the map there should be Azerbajani claimed controlled areas and Armenian claimed controlled areas when they cross each other it means active fighting its taking over, Azerbajani MoD has so far been more accurate with their claim so Armenian MoD's map is more of propaganda as it fails to show Suqovushan and Talish even though it has been verified by all third parties including BBC, i'm not sure what is the point of deleting this map but i propose we add the grey area back as current conflict zones so readers get better idea where the fighting its taking place, Armenian side has also confirmed all those places such as Zengavshen cave, Lachin have active fighting 37.211.159.91 19:35, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Strong oppose: Enough trying to get this map deleted: As others have said above, this map contains Azerbaijani advances that were confirmed by third party sources through using geolocation. This map also appears to be completely hand-made by Emreculha judging by the small file size and map imperfections. I do not understand what deleting this map will accomplish, this is so far the only current map that shows Artsakh strategic situation. Would you prefer the article to have no map? --Rr016 (talk) 19:25, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

 Strong oppose per above comments --Mehman 97 15:49, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Kept. I do not like, that everybody tries to get the map deleted. Emreculha explained own work and I agree with the explanation. If you do not like the current version, then you can upload another one. Taivo (talk) 17:36, 8 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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