Commons:Deletion requests/File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg

This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg

In order to allow the renaming of File:Flag of the United Kingdom (3-5).svg to "File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg". Also, the most commonly used ratio in the UK. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 20:22, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

Strongly opposed -- 2:1 is its aspect ratio as a governmental/naval flag, its most established and historical uses. The 5:3 ratio is used in some cases by the Army, but mainly in flags flown by civilians on land, which are completely unofficial as far as UK laws are concerned. Even if the aspect ratio were to be changed, this would not require the deleting of any file... AnonMoos (talk) 05:00, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Just ask GPinkerton SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 05:05, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

What is that supposed to mean, and why should I care? AnonMoos (talk) 05:07, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/british-flag-protocol/

I will quote the website: "The Flag Institute is an adviser to the UK Parliamentary Flags & Heraldry Committee." If you don't know, the UK Parliamentary Flags & Heraldry Committee is a group owned by the UK parliament. For full context, go the talk page SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 05:09, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

That's nice. It says "The normal proportions for the national flags of the United Kingdom are 3:5 on land, but ensigns are customarily made in proportion 1:2" -- omitting to mention that the 5:3 ratio is mostly unofficial (except in a few specialized cases) while the 2:1 ratio is very official. AnonMoos (talk) 05:18, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

@GPinkerton: Do you think it should be delete to allow the renaming or be kept as it was. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 17:17, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

Breaking out that popcorn now. -- Tuválkin ✉ ✇ 19:44, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Support using this name for 5:3 version, as being by far prevalent among actual flags. Alternatively, that this should redirect to the 5:3 version.- Jmabel ! talk 16:33, 7 May 2023 (UTC)

•  Oppose Stromgly oppose: This file is used, both directly and indirectly on hundreds, if not thousands of Wikipedia pages across most, if not all languages as well as other Wikimedia projects. In many instances authors have hard-coded dimensions so as to allow for the 2:1 ratio (as opposed to any other ratio). Messing around with the dimensions of the image can cause many problems. Martinvl (talk) 16:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

  The file history shows changes back and forth a dozen and a half times already this year. Anybody who relies on the dimensions should have moved away from this redirect long ago. Still, the redirect is in use, so we shouldn't delete it. –LPfi (talk) 17:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Neutral note placed on Village pump to draw more attention to this. Jmabel ! talk 14:52, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

support pointing to 3:5.

based on my brief research, https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide/flying-flags-a-plain-english-guide -> flaginstitute.org -> https://www.flaginstitute.org/wp/uk-flags/union-flag-specification/ -> "the normal proportions for use on land are 3:5" "the customary proportions of ensigns for use at sea are 1:2".

one thing is certain. uk hasnt specified the dimension in law. as such, there is no "official/legal" definition of the flag.

but since uk govt -> flag institute, which says 3:5 is the normal on land, and in modern times flags are flown more often on land than at sea, i think it makes more sense to let the ambiguous title point to the 3:5 version. RZuo (talk) 19:25, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Martinvl: In many instances authors have hard-coded dimensions so as to allow for the 2:1 ratio: can you give 2 examples of the "many" instances where it would be a problem to go to the 5:3 ratio? - Jmabel ! talk 20:51, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

• @Jmabel: Look at my home page on both the English and the Afrikaans Wikipedias. I adjusted the sizes of flags so that each had the same area. Martinvl (talk) 21:15, 9 May 2023 (UTC)
• It looks like your intent there was to get a uniform height by heuristically picking widths, which is kind of backwards. You'd have much better control by something like:

Born:

using "x20px" to explicitly control the height. I'm not sure if it's really a valid consideration for Commons to support this ad hoc workaround for something where there is an overtly supported way to do it. - Jmabel ! talk 22:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

(The [keep] [del] [qd] above is apparently an artifact from putting these on a Deletion Request page, really annoying, not sure if there is a workaround for that.) (it was the effect of a gadget) - Jmabel ! talk 22:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jmabel: I wrote "area", not "height". There is no construct to enable one to generate a constant area. Martinvl (talk) 22:28, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Martinvl: On that basis, you could never upload a new version of anything (or change a redirect to anything) with different dimensions. I don't think we have a rule like that at all on Commons. But if we do, it's been violated several times over the history of this particular redirect. - Jmabel ! talk 22:34, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jmabel: : The fact this discussion is got this long is reason enough to invoke Commons:UPLOADWAR. In my view, leave it as it is with a great big notice telling editors that the current version has been frozen to minimise the risk of corrupting articles and that an alternate version is available should the editor wish to use it. Martinvl (talk) 22:57, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't know how that works technically. Should we just transform the redirect into a disambiguation page, breaking any current use but making the choice obvious? –LPfi (talk) 08:45, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

The disambig would be a pretty bad idea. SpinnerLaserzthe2nd (talk) 13:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

@Jmabel and LPfi: : I have looked at the issues a little more csrefully and I think that the only changes that we need make are:

1. Redirect the default to the 3:5 version of the Union Flag.
2. Add the message shown below to the page File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg

The flag of the United Kingdom has a ratio of 3:5 when used on land and a ratio of 2:1 when used at sea. Since File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg is used mainly for land-based activites, it defaults to the 3:5 ratio version of the Union Flag. If your article needs to use the Union Jack (the 2:1 ratio version), please use File:Flag of the United Kingdom (1-2).svg in your article rather than the default version. Please do not change the default as this will only result in an edit war.

Martinvl (talk) 17:11, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

+1. I'd be fine with that. - Jmabel ! talk 17:13, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I have reworked the message box slightly:

The flag of the United Kingdom has a ratio of 3:5 when used on land (the Union Flag) and a ratio of 2:1 when used at sea (the Union Jack). See The Flag Institute for more information. Since File:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg is used for more land-based activities that sea-based activities, it defaults to the 3:5 ratio version of the Union Flag. If your article needs to use the Union Jack (the 2:1 ratio version), please use File:Flag of the United Kingdom (1-2).svg in your article rather than the default version. Please do not change the default as this will only result in an edit war.

Any comments? Martinvl (talk) 17:03, 12 May 2023 (UTC)

---

Kept: and changed target to 3-5. —‍Mdaniels5757 (talk • contribs) 21:36, 15 May 2023 (UTC)