Commons:Deletion requests/File:Flag-map of the Kingdom of England.svg

From Wikimedia Commons, the free media repository
Jump to navigation Jump to search
This deletion discussion is now closed. Please do not make any edits to this archive. You can read the deletion policy or ask a question at the Village pump. If the circumstances surrounding this file have changed in a notable manner, you may re-nominate this file or ask for it to be undeleted.

File:Flag-map of the Kingdom of England.svg

[edit]

Wales and teh Isle of Mann have never formally been part of England. Proper map at File:Flag map of England.svg ~ Fry1989 eh? 22:05, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Keep Wales has in fact been part of England in a number of ways, which is why Wales doesn't get its own cross on the Union Jack, or its own quartering on the UK royal coat of arms (facts which Fry1989 should be very well aware of). There's been a tendency over the last 60 years or so to distinguish "England and Wales" from "England proper", but before the mid-20th century, such distinctions were not always made. As for the Isle of Man, it's not part of England, but during the 15th and 16th centuries it was under the overlordship of the Kings and Queens of England... AnonMoos (talk) 19:38, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong, the reason Wales is not represented in the Union Jack has nothing to do with that. Wales has been controlled by England, but it has never been incorporated. And the Isle of Mann is still under the lordship of the Engish (now-British) monarch, that's why the Queen is Lord of Mann, but the island has never been incorporated into either England or the United Kingdom. Fry1989 eh? 19:51, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Wales had some distinctive features of administration and local government within England, but so to various degrees did Cornwall, the county-palatine of Durham, Berwick-upon-Tweed, etc. (giving rise to that memorably-named piece of British legislation, the Wales and Berwick Act 1746). The absolute way in which you insist on phrasing things appears to owe more to 20th-century nationalism than accurate history... AnonMoos (talk) 20:41, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Before you try and accuse me, perhaps you sould pay better attention to history yourself, something you clearly didn't do when you tried to suggest Wales isn't on the Union Jack because it was part of England, which is false. Wales was a subjected Principality (hence the titular claim and title "Prince of Wales") to England, whereas England and Scotland were kingdoms at the time of Union. The same was reason why Wales is not represented in the Royal Coat of Arms of the United KIngdom. It's rather hypocritical to try and accuse me of faults when you started your first paragraph with such an error. Fry1989 eh? 20:55, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Did you even bother to read Wales and Berwick Act 1746 which I conveniently linked above? -- AnonMoos (talk) 21:58, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have, which ironically disproves your first claim about the reasoning for Wales not being on the Union Jack, because the Acts of Union between England and Scotland took place in 1707, but the Act you have linked doesn't take place until 1746, 39 years after the Union Jack was created. So again, try and pay attention to your own errors before coming for me. Fry1989 eh? 22:34, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The Wales and Berwick act didn't really change anything very much, just clarified what might have sometimes been considered ambiguous before. And the time to incorporate Welsh elements into the English flag was actually before 1707. See further England and Wales etc. etc. ad nauseam. I have no interest in discussing this matter at great length (especially not with you, when you've returned to your old tricks of simply ignoring all inconvenient facts and evidence). Suffice it to say that you have simply not met the burden of proof in showing that File:Flag-map of the Kingdom of England.svg is alleged nonsense... AnonMoos (talk) 23:00, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately you have it the other way around. You're the one trying to keep this, you have to proove that Wales (and the Isle of Mann btw) was incorporated into England, which it wasn't. The "Laws in Wales Acts 1535–1542" intention was to create a single legal jurisdiction, and supposedly a single state, but while the former took place, the later did not. The same for the Wales and Berwick Act. While it supposedly claims Wales as a part of the Kingdom of England within the United Kingdom, it's more likely intent was to declare the boundries between England and Scotland. This is based on the fact that prior to the act, Berwick had fliped between Scotland and England multiple times. Furthurmore, Wales is considered a "constituent country" of the United Kingdom, and has it's own Assembly. There has been no law passed to repeal Wales being a part of England, which is also proof, because if such a law existed, it would have to be repealed before Wales could legally be a separate entity from England within the United Kingdom. Fry1989 eh? 23:27, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, you still haven't bothered to read Wales and Berwick Act 1746, which explains in great detail how in fact "law[s were] passed to repeal Wales being a part of England" (to use your own wording) in the 1960s and 1970s. Before that time, there were some laws that applied only in Wales (not a unique regional distinction) and the heir to the throne was known as the "Prince of Wales", but there was simply no meaningful quasi-autonomous quasi-unified "principality" in official governmental terminology or administrative practices. Since you're the one who nominated this image for deletion, the burden is on you to show that there's some serious problem with it -- something which you've conspicuously failed to do so far. Some of Dmitri-5-Averin's other images are on shakier ground than this one. AnonMoos (talk) 01:47, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Don't "dude" me, and don't try and tell me what I have and have not read. I have shown several problems with this map. And as the rules go, when something is nominated for deletion, the burden of proof is upon those who wish to keep it. The facts are that Wales has not been at any time incorporated into England as a single united entity, and even if you could interpret in such a way that it was, the Isle of Mann absolutely was not. Fry1989 eh? 02:28, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but that's ass-backwards (as a large number of your efforts seem to end up being) -- if someone raises a prima facie case of copyright problems, then the burden of proof is certainly on those who wish to keep the image to show that there is not a real copyright problem. HOWEVER, in a case like this, where there are alleged factual problems, the burden of proof is entirely and completely on you to make the case that a significant factual problem exists -- a burden which you have conspicuously failed to meet, and which you never will be able to meet if you merely revert to some of your more tiresome and tedious old unconstructive rhetorical strategies, such as simply blatantly and utterly ignoring all facts and evidence which don't support your pre-chosen position... AnonMoos (talk) 04:17, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

P.S. There's actually no conflict between this image and File:Flag map of England.svg, since File:Flag-map of the Kingdom of England.svg shows the historical Kingdom of England, ca. 1282-1603, while File:Flag map of England.svg shows England as one of the current "home nations"... AnonMoos (talk) 23:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  •  Keep I remind people of COM:NPOV. VolodyA! V Anarhist Beta_M (converse) 17:19, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I remind Beta_M that Commons isn't either an encyclopaedia, nor is it en.wp. There's no such thing as NPOV here. "Commons is not Wikipedia, and files uploaded here do not necessarily need to comply with the Neutral point of view and No original research requirements imposed by many of the Wikipedia sites. Commons acts amongst other things as a common media file resource for all Wikimedia projects, and we stand apart from the rules that may be imposed locally by each of those individual projects." --Fred the Oyster (talk) 22:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Delete England is England, Wales is Wales, that's why Wales isn't spelt E-N-G-L-A-N-D. Regardless of governance, politics or acts of law they are two quite separate countries. One could always decide I suppose by walking into a pub in North Wales and tell the locals that they are part of England. I rather doubt they would agree with you. --Fred the Oyster (talk) 22:24, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  •  Keep, I repeat once again for the slow-witted (Fred the Oyster): a flag-map historic England, but not today. D5A (talk) 09:57, 11 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Insults like that are a quick way to a short block, curb your tongue or someone else will for you. Fry1989 eh? 01:45, 20 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted: Proper map is at File:Flag map of England.svg apparently. Also, everyone, please refrain from making personal attacks. DR is not a device with which to attack others. FASTILY (TALK) 06:57, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commons:Deletion_requests/File:Flag-map_of_the_Kingdom_of_England.svg&oldid=77735661"